2024 Berlin Marathon Instant Reaction Pod!

Editors Alex Cyr, Katelyn Tocci and Michael Doyle jump into the studio for an emergency pod, right after the finish of the 2024 Berlin Marathon on Sunday morning.

SPOILER ALERT: we talk about how the race played itself out, and who won.

Chapters

00:00 Instant Reactions to the 2024 Berlin Marathon
06:17 Men's and Women's Races
12:19 Adidas Dominance in the Marathon
17:37 The Impact of Missing Big Names
23:02 Burning Questions Post-Marathon
28:26 Winners and Losers of the Berlin Marathon


Show Notes:

Read our recap of the Berlin Marathon elite races:
https://marathonhandbook.com/results-2024-bmw-berlin-marathon/

Relive the race by scrolling back through our moment-by-moment live updates of the 2024 Berlin Marathon:
https://marathonhandbook.com/2024-berlin-marathon-live-updates/


Men’s Top 10 Results

1. Milkesa Mengesha (ETH), 2:03:17
2. Cybrian Kotut (KEN), 2:03:22
3. Haymanot Alew (ETH), 2:03:31
4. Stephen Kiprop (KEN), 2:03:37
5. Hailemariyam Kiros (ETH), 2:04:35
6. Yohei Ikeda (JPN), 2:05:12
7. Tadese Takele (ETH), 2:05:13
8. Oqbe Kibrom Ruesom (ERI), 2:05:37
9. Enock Onchari (KEN), 2:05:53
10. Melaku Belachew (ETH), 2:06:30

Women’s Top 10 Results

1. Tigist Ketema (ETH), 2:16:42
2. Mestawot Fikir (ETH), 2:18:48
3. Bosena Mulatie (ETH), 2:19:00
4. Aberu Ayana Mulisa (ETH), 2:20:20
5. Ai Hosoda (JPN), 2:20:31
6. Mizuki Matsuda (JPN), 2:20:42
7. Calli Hauger-Thackery (GBR), 2:21:24
8. Yebregual Melese (ETH), 2:21:39
9. Fikrte Wereta (ETH), 2:23:23
10. Sisay Meseret Gola (ETH), 2:23:36

Transcript

Michael Doyle (00:03.982)
I'm joined by my groggy colleagues, Alex Sear and Caitlin Tossie. Guys, we just took in the 2024 Berlin Marathon. And as promised, we are delivering on our instant reaction podcast. It's going to be quick and dirty. We're going to try to get in and out in 20 to 30 minutes. I've put together three different sort of packages for us.

to discuss here. We're going to do a big deal, little deal or no deal at all. A little game, a little sports talk radio game, followed by a few burning questions in the aftermath of watching this Berlin marathon. then, Caitlin's favorite, we're going to do one winner and one loser from the Berlin marathon. All right. First things first. The races themselves.

Just very quickly, we'll do a quick snapshot here. I think the men's race, can say, overall more exciting than the women's race, although the women's performance, slightly more impressive than the men's performance. We had Ethiopia kind of dominating here. So Minghessa, Milkesa, Minghesha.

Katelyn Tocci (01:10.8)
Totally. Totally.

Michael Doyle (01:31.341)
of Ethiopia won the men's race in 203 17 and pre-race favorite on the women's side. Tigist Katema also the Ethiopia sort of ran away with this race in two 16 42. We'll get into her performance right away guys. Let's do big deal, little deal, no deal. Let's start with Tigist Katema's performance to tee this up for everyone listening.

Katelyn Tocci (01:51.28)
Let's do a big deal, little deal, no deal.

Michael Doyle (02:01.421)
Take us to Temma, sort of a newcomer to the marathon in the last year or so. This is her third race. She debuted. She is the fastest debutant ever. She ran Dubai in 2016 at the beginning of this year. Followed that one up with a little jog in London where she finished sixth, then around 220. Sort of okay performance for her at her first world marathon major. Then she pivots to Berlin this fall. The slate is cleared for her. All the Olympic.

Katelyn Tocci (02:19.535)
you

Michael Doyle (02:30.605)
top dogs had spent their effort for this fall in Paris. So she got to run away with Berlin and that she did. And she ran two 16 42, which puts her with now two races and out of three in the top, whatever 15 all time, a big deal, little deal, no deal. This performance.

Katelyn Tocci (02:55.922)
To me it was a big deal to me. wasn't it was absolutely a big deal. I think that because she dominated the race so well I mean, it's always a big deal to be out there and just kill it I mean she had a little company maybe for the first half of the race and just took me She basically took the race by herself. So to me it was a big deal totally dominating no competition It just shows her her her talent her hard work her perseverance. She just killed it

Michael Doyle (02:57.952)
Okay.

Alex Cyr (03:23.738)
I give it a little deal. I think if Katema were around like 10 years ago, it would be a massive deal. She's got all the makeup to be the next one, okay? She's coming from the track. People don't realize this. She was a track runner until 2021. She's super fresh in the marathon, and she seems to be getting a little bit better by the race. I mean, 216 twice. The reason it's a little deal, it's no fault of her own, is...

Katelyn Tocci (03:25.71)
Okay.

Alex Cyr (03:53.594)
the women's marathons become so competitive. Like, someone winning Berlin in 2.16, we've learned, is like, not that big a deal. So, I think, like, it's some type of a deal, because I'm excited to see what she can do in the next couple years. She obviously was the best runner on the start line, but, I mean, you think of what we saw last year, with Acephah going, you know, 2.11. It's a smaller deal than that, but that still makes me excited to see what Katema can do.

Katelyn Tocci (04:07.416)
Right.

Michael Doyle (04:22.612)
I'm somewhere between both of you here. think it's a, I'm the media. This is, we've got a medium deal on our hands here. And because I, you're, you're both right. I'm like the, I'm like the careful parent here. You're both right. I think, I think it gets upgraded to big deal if in retrospect in a year or two.

Katelyn Tocci (04:24.901)
Okay.

Alex Cyr (04:25.901)
Are you introducing the medium deal?

Katelyn Tocci (04:28.238)
Do we have a medium deal? Okay.

Katelyn Tocci (04:36.676)
Pick a side, Michael.

Alex Cyr (04:38.957)
BORING!

Michael Doyle (04:49.9)
If we look back on this is like the jumping off point for her becoming a generational star along with her training partner and Ethiopian teammate and Adidas teammate and fellow Tigist. We could have like the Tigist duo here where we see both of them begin to dominate the world marathon majors over the next two, three, four years. And she pushes her time down closer to that world record.

A Tiggist Asefa has run. I think that'd be really exciting and that would upgrade this performance to in retrospect being kind of like a launching off point and a big deal. But for now, I'm to put it into the I'm breaking my own game's rules here. I'm putting in I'm going medium deal here. So a great I mean, obviously great performance. Very tough to to to lead from the front like that. As you said, Caitlin, she had some company for a bit.

Katelyn Tocci (05:36.888)
Okay.

Michael Doyle (05:47.167)
But then the company faded away and she had to do it all alone. And she ran a relatively even race, which is an indicator that there might be a little bit more there, a little more left there, in terms of performance. So. I mean, really cool to see somebody kind of emerging. think maybe needed right now. We can get into that later. Okay. So let's pivot to the men's race really quickly here. Big deal, little deal, no deal. The men's race outcome.

Katelyn Tocci (05:50.712)
Yeah.

Michael Doyle (06:17.651)
was a more exciting race overall in terms of like a spectacle of viewing experience, sports entertainment, because there was a load of dudes in the first half together. And they started to kind of fade away, but you still had a small pack going into the last kilometers of the race. And as I said before, Mengesha pulls it off. He beats my pre-race pick Sibyung.

Catoot of Kenya by just five seconds in the end. then Hamanot Alu of Ethiopia takes third place in 203.31. So not far behind as well. Okay. So exciting race, but 203 in 2024. I can't believe I'm saying this. 203 in 2024.

Katelyn Tocci (06:53.432)
Mm-hmm.

Katelyn Tocci (07:08.215)
Mm-hmm.

Katelyn Tocci (07:12.673)
I can't.

Michael Doyle (07:14.715)
Alex big deal, little deal, no deal the men's side.

Alex Cyr (07:18.272)
god, I'm actually gonna say no deal at all. I kinda feel like an asshole saying this, because the race was exciting.

Michael Doyle (07:21.257)
Whoa!

Yeah.

Alex Cyr (07:27.319)
No, you expect to see the very best go head to head in Berlin, right? It's just a couple years ago that we were looking at Kipchoge versus Kenny, right? A 203 finish, a race that featured like maybe runner number 10, 11, 12 in the world, roughly, that didn't have a Kipchoge, a Tamerat Tola, a Cissé Lemma, ends up being, my, I feel awful saying it. It's like a sideshow. It was a super...

Interesting sideshow to watch, but a sideshow nonetheless, and it left us thinking, you know, what would have Tola run if he were there? Would he have taken the race? Would Lemma have done the same thing as in Boston and gone even quicker? What if Kibbewad Candy hung on to the crazy pace that he put in? I'll tell you, midway through the race, I thought we were seeing something amazing, but near the end, I was like, eh, this is not a Berlin that we'll remember.

Katelyn Tocci (08:12.694)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Doyle (08:21.203)
Caitlin.

Katelyn Tocci (08:21.377)
We saw positive splits, right, for the men's race. They just kept getting slower and slower and slower as it went on. I'm gonna say little deal. I'm gonna go, it wasn't a big deal, but it was a little deal. And the reason why it was a little deal to me is because it was a big deal to those top four because they all PR'd. And so I'm pretty...

Michael Doyle (08:25.235)
Big time.

Michael Doyle (08:40.456)
look at you. The glass is half full with K. Amazing. How do you do? You do it every time. You're so relentlessly positive.

Katelyn Tocci (08:44.535)
God. No, but I think...

Alex Cyr (08:48.223)
It's because, it's because Caitlin's been up for five hours. She's been up for a little bit longer and she's just hitting her posi- Let me finish my coffee, okay? And then we're gonna be a little bit more positive.

Katelyn Tocci (08:56.372)
Okay, maybe we'll get in attitudes. No, I'm just kidding. A little bit of better look out. No. But no, that's the reason why I did say a little deal because I feel like it is a big deal for them. mean, your PR, it's a big deal. So there's a lot of PRs for the top four.

Michael Doyle (08:56.573)
Yeah, there you go.

Michael Doyle (09:12.809)
I didn't intend for this game to be like me picking between you two at the end here. But in this case, I'm siding with Alex. I think it's no deal at all. think this race just kind of gets lost in the shuffle. And like we look back and go over like 10, you know, the last 10 years of performances at world marathon majors. And I think this one's going to be a real like a down point, which I can't believe I'm saying again with a two or three performance just, I mean, I remember

Katelyn Tocci (09:17.218)
Hahaha

That's okay.

Michael Doyle (09:42.217)
The Dennis Kemeto setting the world record in Berlin about 10 years ago. And I think he got under 204 was at that time. I believe he was, he ran in the two threes. might've been the got under two.

Alex Cyr (09:56.469)
When he set the world record, I think it was 202 high even.

Michael Doyle (09:59.049)
Okay, so, 202 high. just remember thinking to myself like, that's crazy. This is pre-Super shoes and all of that. But now it's like, meh, 203. There's three guys that finished in 203, whatever, you know, like, and, that's just the state of the, the state of the game, right? And I think that's a good thing overall. I think that we're now kind of in this, we're trending towards what happens next year. I'm starting to feel like, and maybe this is answering a

Katelyn Tocci (10:04.489)
Right.

it.

Michael Doyle (10:28.915)
burning a burning question here, but I've started, I'm starting to feel like, we're this season of world marathon majors, particularly this race in Chicago, which are the two fast ones are kind of like a freebie for all of these men and women who did not qualify for the Olympics, but are up and coming and training with the world's best to see if they can run close to the world record times.

And it's like a free shot, whereas next year you're going to get all the killers back and it's going to be kind of big deal racing for everybody across the board in 2025. And also, you know, world championships looming and that sort of thing. So I would say no deal at all, just because I don't think that there's a huge standout performance. They split the first half in two, a one high pace. that's, that was close to.

Ellie Koczogaj's course record. That would have been a big deal. If you would have seen, you know, like a 201 something that would have been a very big deal. And they just faded away. And there was sort of game playing and tactical racing. And also, I think it was probably just a little too hot, too fast a pace for these guys. Okay, so

Katelyn Tocci (11:41.279)
Yeah.

Michael Doyle (11:43.644)
Big deal, little deal, no deal at all. Adidas dominating the results. If you watched the live feed, just a whole bunch of lavender, lavender, vests as the British like to call it, lavender singlets, lavender shorts, and white shoes. The pro Evo, I'm guessing the second edition of the pro Evo, they're, they're super duper shoe. The hyper shoe is Alex and I like to refer it to it.

Big deal, little deal, no deal at all that Adidas totally dominated this race overall.

Alex Cyr (12:18.741)
I'll call it a big deal. I'm bringing out the big deal for this one. The reason is, think, okay, so even after like testing out a bunch of shoes and like making shoe videos, I can't tell when looking at someone's feet if this is a Pro Evo 1 or Pro Evo 2. If the 2 exists, we don't know what it looks like. Someone suggested to us that it might look the exact same just to throw people off.

Michael Doyle (12:22.183)
Okay.

Alex Cyr (12:48.917)
And the reason I think that it's a big deal if some runners have the two or the second version on their feet is because I think every other brand has shown their cards at this point. Like Nike runners wear the Alpha Fly 3, some wear the Vaporfly. ASICs runners wear the Metaspeed Paris. Like the shoe launches, as far as we know, are done for the year. The only potential question mark comes from Adidas. They already had the Pro Evo 1, which arguably, not arguably, was already ahead of...

all the other shoes in the game and now they might have something better. I thought the era of like one brand dominating the shoe game was done after everyone caught up to Nike. I wonder if we're going to see a second version of that as other brands try to catch up to Adidas. And the fact that today they dominated so much could just mean that there were a lot of Ethiopians in the race and it was some of the best Ethiopians and most

Katelyn Tocci (13:24.592)
one brand dominating the shoe game is done after everyone caught up to Nike. I wonder if we're gonna see a second version of that as other brands try to catch up with Adidas. And the fact that today they dominated so much could just mean that there were a lot of biopians in the race and some of the best-y biopians and most from Adidas.

Alex Cyr (13:45.844)
pro-Ethiopian runners are sponsored by Adidas, it could be that, that could be the confound, but also, it could be that there's a new hyper-hypershoe in the game, and if that's the case, it's a big deal, and even the speculation of it, I call it a big deal.

Katelyn Tocci (13:54.063)
in case you speculate.

Katelyn Tocci (13:59.154)
Okay, Alex, you know, I knew you were going to come up with something because you have all the inside info, you know all about the shoes and it's so... Yeah, no, and because I was going to say no, no deal because it just didn't seem like any new news for me because it was just like didn't Adidas dominate in what we were recently seeing in previous races of the Olympics and so I thought, okay, well, I guess I just wasn't surprised. I was like, okay, I was here to see them. You know, I knew that they were going to be...

Alex Cyr (14:05.47)
Well, something has to be a big deal.

Michael Doyle (14:07.387)
Yeah.

Katelyn Tocci (14:25.299)
the headlining shoe brand, we just saw them there and I was like, okay, I actually didn't even really think about it until you guys mentioned it. So to me, I guess it just wasn't as big as a deal, but I didn't know that this shoe may be in the works. So kind of changes the game. So no deal.

Alex Cyr (14:35.742)
So no deal, Howie.

Michael Doyle (14:38.407)
I'm going to round this one out by going little deal. I think it's a little deal because, again, I see both your perspectives and you're both right in your own ways. It's been a weekend of parenting and compromise.

Katelyn Tocci (14:41.548)
Okay.

Alex Cyr (14:50.277)
my god.

Katelyn Tocci (14:50.465)
I love it. I love it.

Alex Cyr (14:58.887)
Ha

Michael Doyle (15:01.251)
It's always a bit of a deal when a shoe brand puts up a lot of performers on the podium at a world marathon major. And the reason why is whether or not, whether or not this is fair at the end of the year, you're just going to see various shoe. Instagrams and whatever floating around. And I'm sure we'll do a story on it too, which is like, here's the kind of the tally of the world marathon majors and the Olympics of what shoes did.

did well, right? And we're going to see Adidas dominating across the board. Now, Alex, two really important points that you put out there. Berlin is an Adidas event, just like Chicago is a Nike event. So you're going to see more Adidas runners in the elite field at the start line. They're stacking their field. It's their home turf. It's also in Germany. Adidas is a German company, so it makes perfect sense.

And the second point to that, which is of like compounding that is that it is true that it seems like the vast, vast, vast majority of Ethiopian runners are Adidas runners as well, particularly their best runners. So this was an Adidas event where they made sure a lot of their runners that wanted to run that did not run the Olympics were at this event. And then also, of course, a big Ethiopian contingent at this year's race as well.

But I gotta say, even though that's the case and that's sort of stack in the field a little bit, and maybe it's an unfair advantage Adidas has, nevertheless, the Pro Evo 1, 2, whatever it is, is a scintillating, fascinating, alluring shoe. It's a shoe that if like money were not an object and you know, like you're about to run a marathon and you walk into some sort of

strange like a Pepsi taste challenge for shoes in 2024. And they've got like, all the shoes lined up. And they're like, you got to choose a shoe that you're gonna run in for the next 26.2 miles. I think you got to go with the Adidas shoe. So I think it's a little deal, a little deal trending towards big deal as I'm talking about it. Okay, last one for this round. Big deal.

Michael Doyle (17:26.213)
little deal, no deal at all. Lack of big names in the results at the 2024 Berlin Marathon. Caitlin.

Katelyn Tocci (17:37.543)
Big deal. Very big deal. I feel like the marathon, mean, we covered it very well, of course, pat on the back to us, marathon handbook, I feel as though the marathon didn't get the coverage that it kind of should get and that is merited to it. I feel like when I was reading around and looking for news, I don't feel like it was as big as, when we were looking into or getting ready for the London Marathon or getting ready. I felt like there was a lot more excitement.

Michael Doyle (17:54.798)
Mmm.

Katelyn Tocci (18:07.046)
a lot more news. And so feel like maybe if it had something to do with, well, the Olympics just passed and there was a big deal and we lost a lot of maybe top tier athletes as we're discussing with the, you know, second tier times that we saw at this marathon. I think that it was a big deal because maybe it pulled just a little bit of attention away and something that I will get into much later. Even I, for example, in Central America did not have coverage, like a broadcast for the marathon. So I mean, that to me, it was a very big deal. And I don't know if

that perhaps some of the athletes not headlining the marathon took away or affected any of these pieces. But yeah, I think it was a big deal.

Alex Cyr (18:45.586)
I'm gonna disagree again and go no deal at all. And I thought about it a little bit. I think it's easy to fall into that narrative of like, wow, there's no Kipchoge. There's no—there's no acefa. There's no bikili. my God. But then I thought about how important the Olympics are in this story, right? Not only is Berlin of this year on Olympic year, but it's the first major after the Olympics. I can see people doubling up and, you know,

Michael Doyle (18:49.368)
Love it. Okay.

Alex Cyr (19:15.826)
some of the top athletes not having a great race at the Olympics saying, all right, I'm going to try again in the fall. Why not do New York or Chicago and give themselves another couple of weeks? That makes sense. So I tested my theory. went back to 2021 to see what the Berlin results are. Anyone remember who won the Berlin Marathon in 2021? Exactly. No, it's...

Katelyn Tocci (19:25.499)
Yeah.

Katelyn Tocci (19:35.408)
Michael, this is for you.

Michael Doyle (19:36.942)
Damn you. Damn you, Ciri. You got me.

Alex Cyr (19:41.393)
The men's race was won in a 2.05 by Guy Aydola, Ethiopia. The women's race by Gaudi Tom Ghebre Selassie in a 2.20. These times were not spectacular for the time. They're not spectacular now. And I think it's just a product of the schedule and the time. So I'm not fretting about it. Some organizers of Berlin might be nervous. I'm saying, just wasn't your year. It'll be better next year.

Katelyn Tocci (20:05.137)
That's positive. That's a good outlook though, Alex. Yeah, very. Okay, okay, you've perked up.

Alex Cyr (20:08.09)
I had my coffee, yeah.

Michael Doyle (20:11.075)
the coup de grace there. You're just like, brought in the stats from 21 and you even think to do that. Very clever. Very clever. I think I still think, I mean, that's, that's compelling. That's compelling evidence that you've presented there, but I still think it's a big deal. And the reason why I think it is a big deal is because when we talked about Berlin, the very first, and when we did that, little like mood board Berlin marathon.

Katelyn Tocci (20:16.954)
That was awesome. Good Alex.

Katelyn Tocci (20:24.145)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Doyle (20:40.1)
What do you imagine speed, fast performance times, world records and world records create superstars. And perhaps to chicken and egg thing, perhaps it's like, Hey, listen, if Katema would have one in 210 somehow, then we, you know, we wouldn't even be talking about this because it'd be like, we've got our next great one here. We've got our next great superstar. So, two birds, one stone scenario, but.

I think about a race like Chicago. Now, Chicago right now has got the world men's world record, right? so it's sort of seen as this lightning fast course with this absolutely incredible, incredible performance last year that it can kind of mold or shape its identity around at the moment. But Chicago for a lot of years.

Was kind of slipping into being like a B team type race. think apart from being a marathon major, because it never had any real like standout performances and Berlin had all the world records. And there was even a lot of discussion of like, how much faster is Berlin than Chicago. And this trickles down to recreational runners as well. And they're like, you know, what's the fastest course to run where I can run my PR, PPE, or whatever you want to call it.

Katelyn Tocci (22:05.189)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Doyle (22:06.69)
and I think, I think that's a big deal. And so I think that like, maybe again, hindsight is 2020 here. If we get a couple of years in the future and Alex is going to be like, see, it's just post Olympic year. Berlin is always going to take a hit because it's the September race right after the Olympic marathon. No big deal. We had a world record in 2020 and 2025. Everyone's good. Right. But I think for now it's a big deal. I think it is. Okay. So.

Let's go into, this is a perfect pivot here. Let's go into our five burning questions that will be left mulling over for days and weeks about this Berlin Marathon as we go into the rest of the World Marathon major schedule here. And this kind of teases at what I was just talking about here. And I'll pose this to you first, Caitlin. How big a draw is

Katelyn Tocci (23:00.155)
Okay.

Michael Doyle (23:02.796)
Berlin for the average recreational runner if it can't produce really fast times at the front.

Katelyn Tocci (23:09.709)
Yeah, this is gonna, we're gonna talk about this a little later, but where it is in our list again of the majors. As someone who's just starting out wanting to run all of the majors, I kind of felt, and you guys can, well, Michael can tell me a little bit more about this, but I felt that, you know, people want to go there and they want to run a really fast time. But my question to you is, is it possible with the crowds that I saw when you're in those corrals?

Michael Doyle (23:15.403)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Doyle (23:36.61)
Yeah, that one.

Katelyn Tocci (23:38.36)
That's my big question. Like yes, I would love to go there and run a really flat race and see what I can do in a flat race because all the marathons, well I've not run that many, they've been like pretty hilly and so I don't really know how I perform on a super flat course. And so I would love to go to a flat course and give it a try and see how I do on a, you know, without so many hills. But I saw the crowds in there. And guys, does it really make that much of a difference? Does it really slow you down a ton or not really?

Michael Doyle (24:08.418)
So this has been a point of discussion. I'm running Chicago in a couple of short weeks and even at the very front of the race. you're in the first corral, the first wave corral, a, guess it's called wave one, which is where I'll be at. which is neat, you know, right behind the, right behind the elite runners, but it's still me and several thousand of my closest running friends starting in that first corral, first wave.

Katelyn Tocci (24:14.106)
Yay.

Katelyn Tocci (24:23.45)
Okay.

Katelyn Tocci (24:33.86)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Doyle (24:36.891)
And you get out to a fast start and everyone's super excited and running probably way faster than they should be. In the first mile or so, but it's still super clogged. And this is with a really wide Boulevard, right? And we're not talking tiny European streets. We're talking, you know, Chicago, Michigan Avenue, I think is the, the Boulevard or Avenue, I guess. and it's really congested and like the first 5k is actually quite chaotic and.

Katelyn Tocci (24:48.364)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Katelyn Tocci (25:05.625)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Doyle (25:06.623)
quite stressful and you kind of have to let go and just chill and keep the heart rate down and not freak out, stay poised and accept the fact that like your first five case bullets going to be anywhere from like slightly too fast. Cause you got pulled through with this giant group of people and then want to get trampled or kind of on the slow side because you got stuck in a log jam behind a whole bunch of people. So in that regard, I think some of these quote unquote, super duper fast world marathon majors.

Katelyn Tocci (25:22.83)
Mm-hmm.

Katelyn Tocci (25:30.202)
Okay.

Michael Doyle (25:36.506)
are fast because the overall, course is flat and it's extremely well organized. but they're going to feel chaotic at times. So, kind of a dancing around like that. Is this performance of this edition of the race going to affect your, your, your decision or your, or the draw of the average person, which like, you know, Caitlin, you and I are average, we're at, we're average people and maybe Alex is a little speedier, but,

Katelyn Tocci (25:39.524)
Mm-hmm.

Katelyn Tocci (25:47.022)
Mm-hmm.

Katelyn Tocci (25:53.081)
Right.

Michael Doyle (26:06.247)
Alex, what's your take on this?

Alex Cyr (26:06.575)
Yes, as an above average person, Michael, I've considered this deeply. You know, no, I mean, and I mean this to no disrespect to anybody, but would the average runner care if the top time is a 2.03 and not a 2.02 or a 2.16 and not a 2.14?

Michael Doyle (26:10.555)
Yes, yes.

Katelyn Tocci (26:12.122)
you

Katelyn Tocci (26:23.512)
Right.

Katelyn Tocci (26:27.029)
getting to that? I don't think so. I mean, do you think so? No. Yeah.

Michael Doyle (26:29.664)
I don't think so over one year, but I would think so over 10 years. like, for whatever reason, the next 10 years, Berlin produces kind of like soft elite results and no, nothing close to world records. then say Chicago is just because it's drawing the better athletes or locker, what better race Dave's weather wise or whatever produces like the next five world records.

Alex Cyr (26:29.966)
Yeah.

Katelyn Tocci (26:43.875)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Doyle (26:57.31)
the narrative will change, right? The narrative will turn to like, maybe Berlin's not as fast as we thought it was and Chicago's faster. Yeah, that will, I think so, I think so.

Alex Cyr (27:02.785)
It's not that fast.

Yeah. But I think we need more of these years. I think we need like five or six years stacked one after the other of quote unquote underwhelming top times. Like if no one comes close to the world records until 2029, 2030, I think that's what it takes to gain a reputation. still, I don't think Berlin loses its reputation as a fast marathon just after the one year.

Katelyn Tocci (27:33.305)
Yeah, especially because it came after the London Marathon. I mean, I don't think we were expecting such fast times, but I mean, if next year they bounce back because, sorry, because of the Paris Olympics. I don't think that, you know, if they bounce back next year because we don't have the Olympics and then we get these super fast scorching times or we break our world record again or something like that, I think, you know, but I don't know, to me, I guess that the top times were 203, you know, 203 something and that's not going to affect me as a recreational runner for this, maybe just because I'm not fast, so.

Michael Doyle (27:33.352)
Okay.

Katelyn Tocci (28:02.585)
It still seems like so above and beyond and out of my league that I'm just so impressed by it anyway that I don't think it would affect me, but maybe in the long run it would affect the marathon overall.

Michael Doyle (28:04.831)
Yes.

Michael Doyle (28:16.518)
If, if, if we're all across the finish line of a marathon, Caitlin and the, the race organizers say like, actually that's not the finish. You got to go out and do another loop. Then you become fast. Okay. So next one, burning question are races without huge headliners fun to watch?

Katelyn Tocci (28:26.772)
Alex Cyr (28:41.295)
Less so. I get the appeal of like, hey, Tigus to Sefa are two 11 runners not here, so now the race is up for grabs. I get that, but I still think it's less exciting. Like, Michael, you said earlier, world records build superstars. I would alter that a little and say races with major headliners build superstars because either the headliner wins and stacks his or her legacy,

Or someone beats the headliner. Someone becomes the Kipchoge Dragon Slayer or whatever. Right? And then, well, that's kind of, you know... And then, I'm trying to think who... When Kipchoge kind of faltered in London a few years ago, the handful of gentlemen who beat him became the Kipchoge Slayers, just like that. That creates a legacy in itself, Superstar. So, without a major headliner, that whole dynamic is missing. And so, no, I...

Katelyn Tocci (29:14.742)
Hehehehe

Michael Doyle (29:15.999)
I was waiting for that reference.

Katelyn Tocci (29:18.662)
I'm

Alex Cyr (29:41.047)
I do get the fun of not knowing who's going to be on the podium, but I think the marathon is so precarious that even when there are big headliners, you still don't know if they're going to take the win.

Katelyn Tocci (29:50.571)
I think I have a kind of a different take on it because it's not that I'm thinking if the headliner is going to take the win or not take the win. I think I just like watching a really good race. And I think that that can be applied to any kind of like, I'm a huge sports fan. I love watching. I'll watch almost any sport. And if it's a good game, no matter who is in it, then I'll be excited about it. So I think that I liked watching the men's field today, the women's field. just felt like amazingly impressed by, by.

Alex Cyr (29:59.405)
Mm.

Katelyn Tocci (30:16.12)
obviously by the win, but the men's field, I like watching it because it's back and forth. We don't know who's going to win. The crowd was big for the first half. It was still big in the second half with eight to 11 people. And then, you know, you had the four guys at the end and we didn't know who was going to come in first, second or third. And we got a surprise for third place. So I think it's not such a big deal to me because I just really like watching a good strategic marathon or, you know, a great football game or whatever it's going to be as long as it's exciting and it's interesting.

Michael Doyle (30:45.307)
Yeah, I think that, I think that it's important to have stars and I think that this is a star starved sport and a very precarious time, which we'll talk about with the last burning question I got for you guys a little bit more. And I think that it turns into like, yeah, like you said, Caitlin, it kind of turns into a, an entertainment for the, for the real ones of us, the ones who like.

We'll watch anything, but like the diehards, right? and then you're, and then you're like, you know, I'm interested in who these people are. want to know more about them. I am a student of the sport. kind of want to study up on some of these up and comers so that I'm familiar with their names in the future. Cause these could be the next. Kipchoge's Tamaractola is a guy that we kind of tracked for the last few years and now he's the Olympic champion and kind of a big deal. so, but.

Katelyn Tocci (31:14.205)
Yeah.

Michael Doyle (31:42.128)
I would say that what's lacking right now in the world of particularly marathon fandom, but athletics fandom is the, if I use like the NFL equivalent, cause the NFL is this like dominant sports entertainment product. There are people who will watch the like the 4pm game on Sunday when it's, the New York giants against the Carolina Panthers. They're just like two shit teams. And you're just like,

Katelyn Tocci (32:10.921)
you

Michael Doyle (32:11.131)
But there's like a four hour block in your afternoon and you're there to consume football entertainment, right? That's what you signed up for. I'm not saying that the world marathon majors are ever going to get to that, but you've got to build up one heck of a product to have that draw where people are just like, I just want to watch. I just want to watch a marathon. I want to live stream, Berlin and just take it all in regardless of what happens. So got a ways to go before we get there if we ever do, but

Katelyn Tocci (32:29.396)
I'll just watch it.

Michael Doyle (32:40.858)
Okay. So next burning question. Did this race alter your personal power rankings of the world marathon majors? We talked about this in our preview pod for Berlin, where we slotted Berlin as a race that we wanted to run and a race we want to pay attention to as well. Cause there's sort of two different things at the same time. Alex, did this, did, did Berlin move up or down your power rankings in terms of like, let's just say a race you want to run. Or did it just stay the same?

Katelyn Tocci (32:49.78)
Hahaha

Alex Cyr (33:10.825)
It stayed the same for me. Okay, back to that question of does that affect our own desire to run it, just the fact that it was a bit slower? Personally, it doesn't affect it. Same thing. I'm not going to be up there. I'm not going to be up there with these guys. And so if I'm...

Katelyn Tocci (33:21.401)
I'm not gonna be up there. I'm not gonna be up there.

Michael Doyle (33:24.711)
You're going to be, you'll be close. could do it for a mile. You'd be that guy who runs at the lead for a mile. Yeah. Why don't you be that guy? God.

Katelyn Tocci (33:26.451)
Yeah.

Alex Cyr (33:27.913)
Well, close is relative, you know. Yeah.

Katelyn Tocci (33:31.101)
Yeah, who wants to be in the picture? Who wants to just show up in the stream?

Alex Cyr (33:35.655)
That might be kind of cool. Yeah, yeah, waste my trip to Berlin. I'll make good YouTube video. No, it doesn't change it for that reason. The only thing that it alters in my mind is that I think I'm going to be a little bit less excited about watching Berlin on Olympic years because I think there is a bit of a trend there. And so I might expect it to be a little bit weaker every four years. But in the grand scheme of things, that makes no real difference. So no, it's...

Michael Doyle (33:41.607)
Yeah.

Katelyn Tocci (33:55.165)
Yeah.

Alex Cyr (34:03.657)
This doesn't hurt its legacy for me. I still want to run it one day, and I'll watch it intently next year when someone goes 201 and 211 again.

Michael Doyle (34:11.389)
is dark thought, but think about how many Olympics you've got left in your life to watch. And then that is how many Berlins you have to not worry about. Alex is like, I've got like, like, like 20. Kayla and I like we've each got four left.

Katelyn Tocci (34:20.489)
Michael, that's not nice. It's like I can't even count, there are so many. I'm like, I just felt sad for a second.

Michael Doyle (34:31.812)
Yeah, it's a sort of existential cloud of darkness here over the pod. Sorry. Sorry, sorry, sorry. So yeah, Caitlin, did it move the power rankings at all for you or are locked in the same?

Katelyn Tocci (34:36.488)
Thanks, Michael. Great way to start a Sunday morning.

Alex Cyr (34:37.841)
Yikes.

Katelyn Tocci (34:44.7)
You know, I wish I could give you a really good reason, but it did. It went down a spot and I plopped New York up another spot. went, yeah, I don't know. I just felt like I wasn't as excited. But you know what? Now when I watch New York, I'm gonna have a better idea. It was more on your comments about New York and you kind of got me jazzed about thinking about running New York and that marathon and then watching Berlin. I didn't feel quite the same.

Michael Doyle (34:50.187)
really?

Alex Cyr (34:51.133)
Mmm.

Michael Doyle (34:54.047)
Katelyn Tocci (35:11.568)
excitement for it. So we'll see when I see New York. But now I've got Boston, London, New York instead of Boston, London, Berlin. So we'll see what happens.

Michael Doyle (35:19.376)
I'm sort of locked in, I'm locked in the same spot I was before. I would still say that Berlin is sort of, Berlin is a city overall as a cultural epicenter of Europe is intriguing to me for a lot of reasons beyond the marathon. I'm interested in the art and culture and music of Berlin. I got a couple of friends that live there. I'm interested in the history of it. I'm interested in the whole, the whole cold war history of it as well. So.

Katelyn Tocci (35:33.929)
Mm-hmm.

Katelyn Tocci (35:46.312)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Doyle (35:47.703)
And it's a fast course. like, Hey, I'll take a fast course run, but at the same time, terms of like ranking my interest in the marathon itself, I still think New York is the best and I want to go back and do it again. Although I've got London in there now too. so Berlin is sort of falling into the exact same spot. This did not move the needle one way or another for me. all right. Another burning question here. Are any of the.

top Olympians that ran in the marathon or even people who like struggled in the marathon and the Olympics in Paris this year. Did any of them watch the flow track live stream from the comfort of their training confines or maybe their off season home and think to themselves, shit, I should have, I should have showed up at the start line. I could run a 203 or a 216 right now and, or I could have like made the podium or given it a go like.

That would have been fun. could have won a world marathon major. What was I doing? Alex?

Alex Cyr (36:54.01)
There's, okay, one name comes to mind. Okay, I wish Tegess Esefa would have run this. This is asking a lot of her because it's not like she bombed Paris. She was second in Paris. And before that, she ran London. So she's already had a chock-full year of marathoning. Two marathons a year is plenty. But to repeat, to do the three-peat in Berlin, I think would have been legendary.

Michael Doyle (37:05.583)
Yeah.

Alex Cyr (37:23.718)
It would have added some flavor to the start list. It would have given a training partner to Kitema, maybe propelling her to even a faster time. I think it really would have benefited the race if she were there. If you're listening, take us to Sefa, come on. Stop slacking off. You should have done Berlin. No, and I think that's the only name. mean, I think of others, especially on the women's side, like most of the top athletes have had a year. Sefa is one of them. I'm obviously just joking about her.

Katelyn Tocci (37:31.077)
Mm-hmm.

Alex Cyr (37:52.36)
Sifan Hassan had a massive year just in that Olympic week alone. You're in something like 60 something K of racing. It's like not her again.

Michael Doyle (37:55.875)
Can you imagine?

Katelyn Tocci (37:58.121)
Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Doyle (38:00.038)
man.

Alex Cyr (38:01.608)
Then you have Helen O'Berry, Sharon Loquetti. These are athletes we've seen so much. And so I am not reproaching any of these people for not doing Berlin. It's just people are cook now. I don't know. So, so, so no, like, I don't think anyone, at least on the women's side, was sitting on the couch thinking, should have been there. Maybe on the men's side, Cissé Lema. Okay. Pull. Okay. Pull.

Katelyn Tocci (38:11.846)
No.

Michael Doyle (38:26.265)
Yeah, yeah. Good call. Yeah, really good call.

Katelyn Tocci (38:27.266)
huh. Good call.

Alex Cyr (38:30.984)
pulled out of the Olympics, injured, obviously in terrific form this year, won the Boston Marathon. Maybe he's still injured. I don't know what the situation is. I'm guessing maybe that's the case because it would have been good to see him repeat because obviously he's in great form. yeah, I'm giving it to Lemma.

Katelyn Tocci (38:46.644)
That's great. Yeah, no, that's a good one. I would have also loved to see us have a run. I mean, I mean, I'm not going to lie. I think that there were probably a bunch of people on the couch thinking, yeah, I could have won that race. But should they have? No, completely Alex is the first thing we're going to agree on today. I completely agree with Alex. And I think that they should have and probably did listen to their coaches, even if they got excited or wanted to, because it was probably just too big of a risk. I mean, like Alex said, they're just totally burnt out. Why risk an injury?

Michael Doyle (39:02.831)
Hmm.

Katelyn Tocci (39:13.147)
if you can start the next season super strong or even wait a few months to run another marathon later in the season. So Alex, we agreed on one thing today.

Michael Doyle (39:23.704)
I'm just looking here. seeing that I think the strategic move has been, and we're going to, we're going to cover New York in great detail down the line in November, but there's a whole bunch of Olympians that are popping up in New York city to run New York. And that makes sense because there's a little bit of a break, right? Whereas obviously, Paris is, or sorry, Berlin is really, has really up against Paris, but the CEC lemma poll, that's a good one. that's a really good one. Yeah.

Katelyn Tocci (39:33.981)
Mm-hmm.

Katelyn Tocci (39:40.669)
Right.

Katelyn Tocci (39:50.706)
Yeah.

Michael Doyle (39:53.398)
All right. Last burning question. We wouldn't get out of this pod without talking about the Kipper. Should Elliot Kipchoge have run this race and what is his future? Crystal ball time, Alex. Look in there.

Katelyn Tocci (40:08.412)
Go Alex.

Alex Cyr (40:10.599)
Stop trying to make Kipchoge happen. It's not happening anymore.

Michael Doyle (40:14.923)
Make Kipchoge great again.

Alex Cyr (40:16.975)
Make a check. Yeah, you know, I think that I think this race was actually a bit of a a bit of a minefield for Kipchoge had he entered. The field was too weak for it to be acceptable that he would lose. If Kipchoge entered, you know what I mean? Like, if Kipchoge entered this race, he would have had to win.

Katelyn Tocci (40:20.155)
you

Michael Doyle (40:38.368)
good point.

Katelyn Tocci (40:39.403)
okay. Yep.

Alex Cyr (40:44.283)
I think mentally that's a bad situation, even for a philosopher king like Kipchoge, right? There's nothing to beat it. It's not like you're racing Tamarantola, for example, the reigning Olympic champion, whereas like if you lose, yeah, even if you're Kipchoge, you're losing against the Olympic champion. Here, it was either you win and you did what you're supposed to do or you lose and you've underperformed. I don't think this was the race for Kipchoge to come back and win, unless he was in world record form, which I suspect he's not.

I don't think this was the time. Maybe he makes a run for it next spring. Maybe we see him again. You can't bet against greatness after all. But this wasn't Kipchoge's week.

Michael Doyle (41:15.833)
call.

Katelyn Tocci (41:16.55)
Mm-hmm.

Katelyn Tocci (41:22.666)
Yeah, think selfishly everyone or a lot of people would have loved to just see him there and make this comeback after what happened at the Olympics. I think we would have loved to see it. But like Alex said, can you imagine the pressure and the stress that he would have probably not going into that race with what happened at the Olympics, probably not going into that race with his head right, even if he is 100 % fit and at his fittest, which we're also wondering about.

So I agree that perhaps like I would have loved to see him there, but only if he were able to make that comeback. Only if he were able to win and we were able to see Kipchoge at maybe not his best best ever, you know, his best win the marathon, kind of get that confidence back and you know, the crowd loves him. So it would have been nice, but maybe it was just a bit too soon.

Michael Doyle (42:11.171)
Yeah, I'm reassessing my, my, my take on this in real time. As you guys are talking or convincing me of this, was initially thinking to myself, like, this is a great opportunity for him to come in, have the Berlin marathon organizer set the table for him and have him have success, pump out one world marathon major win, one more world marathon major win, you know, kind of pad the stats,

Do the LeBron approach to the claim of goat status where it's just like, it's about length and breadth of career and success, not about the highs being the highest highs. Although I would say that if we're going to do an NBA comp, feels like Kipchoge is both Jordan and LeBron at the same time somehow. So it's like, you know, he's good, but you're right, Alex, this, unless they were going to clear the decks for him and

sub out all of these guys who are able to kind of float in around two or three for the win and bring in like a bunch of like real, like, like B squad scrub guys that like, you know, he was comfortable taken down. And then that would have felt kind of a bit like a, like a staged race, right? Like a fake race. So yeah, it's lose, lose unless he would have somehow like could have said with a hundred percent confidence, like I can smash this thing kind of.

Katelyn Tocci (43:20.869)
Yeah.

Michael Doyle (43:35.351)
reminds me similar to the scenario in Tokyo that he found himself in earlier this year, where he came in as the clear favorite. It sort of felt like a fait accompli, that he was going to just float through Tokyo because he'd had success there before. This was going to be yet another world marathon major to add to his legacy. the big question was going to be, he still have the speed to run close to a world record or like a 202 or something like that?

And like with this race, there was a large group of people in the first half. were splitting around 201 high pace. very fast. And in Tokyo in March, Jogi struggled mightily with that and then faded back quite badly and ran until, I mean, until, Paris, probably arguably the worst race he's ever run before. So yeah, maybe this would have been a disaster for him and further hurt his legacy.

I think the big question mark is now like, does he do next? What does he do in 2025? Like what's the next phase of his career? there needs to be planning here. You know, this is a, he's a franchise. He's not just a runner. He is a brand. So how does Nike handle this? How does his agent handle this? He, he's like, he built the NN running team, right? Which is now developed into this, this pretty big group.

Katelyn Tocci (44:35.717)
Mm-hmm

Katelyn Tocci (44:48.612)
handle this, how this is agent handle this. He's like, built the end-end run.

Michael Doyle (45:00.151)
with a pretty big footprint globally as an elite team. He was the figurehead of that for a long time. So there's a lot of moving parts, a lot of questions to be answered with Elliot Kipchoge. Okay. And 2025, I think will be a big year. Does he start just doing like the, the victory tour where he's just showing up at every world marathon major and he's doing like the, the meb thing where he's just like, I'm going to pace the, the sub three group out and you know, I'm sponsored by Abbott, you know, and he's like,

glad having people glad handing people all weekend at the expo and doing talks and doing lots of like media hits and that sort of thing. Is that what 2025 and beyond is going to be for him? Or is he going to like try to run New York in 2025 because he's never run New York and he's tried to like do all the majors. Like what's what happens with him? I don't know. Do they does Nike come out with like like

I don't know, like a not so fast, fast super shoe called the Kipchoge. I don't know. That's maybe a mean, mean dig there, but okay. Speaking of digs, last, last component of this pod. Then we're out. Then we move on from Berlin and on to Chicago. Caitlin, one winner, one loser. Let's go. Again.

Katelyn Tocci (46:19.376)
I hate doing the loser thing. Okay. I know, I know. I know. I know. No, and mine is going to be, well, you guys will see the pattern. Okay. So my winner was the second place on the women's side, right? Fakir, because she joined the sub 220 club and she beat her PR by two minutes.

Michael Doyle (46:23.903)
It's not the person's a loser. It's someone who has something to gain and they lost.

Katelyn Tocci (46:47.147)
from April. So I think that she was a winner because she's got to be super happy with herself for just killing her PR by so much. So I was really happy about that. And the loser. Guys, this is absolutely a pattern. I got up at three in the morning to watch the marathon so I could, so I, you know, I could watch it from, because I have to watch the whole thing. I like to watch every second of it. What happens, I don't want to miss

an elbow or I don't want to miss not being able to get the bottle and the shove that we saw today. I don't want to miss anything. So I want to watch a whole thing. If you go to like the broadcast lists, Central America was not even like taken into consideration on much of where we would watch the marathon. was like South America. Then you saw the United States and you saw Canada. So I assumed, okay, what's probably going to be on those same avenues. know, Disney plus ESPN literally 45 minutes.

Michael Doyle (47:18.57)
and elbow.

Katelyn Tocci (47:44.537)
trying to figure out how to watch the marathon. It shouldn't be that hard. Like it should be readily available to get paid for and watch. And it was so difficult. It literally took me this whole time. So I'm gonna say again, guys, come on. We really wanna watch the marathon. If you come to Costa Rica, you have thousands of runners out on the weekends. Well, I thousands doesn't sound like a lot, but when you're in a very small country, it is. You can't even get through the center of my town because of the amount of people running their long runs on the weekends. Like marathoning is huge here.

We always have a ton of Costa Ricans in Berlin. Just make it a little easier for us to be able to pay for and watch the marathon. It was just very frustrating. And so I was watching it like up to the last minute of the podcast. So I guess the loser for me was please just make it a little easier for us to be able to watch. Let me be able to click on something and watch it. That's all. That's all I ask.

Alex Cyr (48:32.087)
But by South America, they meant Texas.

Katelyn Tocci (48:35.47)
Exactly, like I'm like, what do you mean? We're here guys, come on. Throw me a bone, how can I watch the marathon? So maybe there was an easier way, but let me tell you, I had three people on it, two that are very techy and I am not, so I asked for help and we just couldn't get it. So it took a while.

Michael Doyle (48:52.599)
Yeah, our marathon handbook Slack lights up at like 3 30 in the morning Eastern time with like Caitlin being like, guys, how do I watch this? How do I get in? How do I watch flow track from Costa Rica? I know it's like a world marathon major guys. Figure this out. You know? Yeah.

Katelyn Tocci (49:01.624)
Yeah, come on guys, help me.

It's a big deal. It was a big deal. So anyway, so that was the biggest loser for me.

Michael Doyle (49:11.723)
Alex.

Alex Cyr (49:13.923)
Okay, so, biggest winner, I was gonna go with Ethiopia because they had 13 of the top 20 finishers, top 10 men, top 10 women, but we've talked about this. So I'm gonna go all WTF on you guys. My winner is Kibbewad Candy. Yeah. For context, I don't think we've talked about him. Kibbewad Candy was one of the favorites of the race who we saw for the first half and then...

Michael Doyle (49:29.643)
What?

Alex Cyr (49:41.025)
Shortly after, he crashed and burned and finished nowhere near the lead. I'm not even sure if he finished at all. We're going to have to go through the results again. 13th, there we go.

Michael Doyle (49:47.959)
I think he was 13th, think. at 206 he finished in. He was all over the place in this race.

Katelyn Tocci (49:49.609)
Yeah, somewhere around there. Yeah.

Yeah.

Alex Cyr (49:54.211)
This is why I'm giving him the winner title. Okay, let's set the stage. This men's race at one point seemed like it would actually fill that gap of like, is someone going to go 201 in Berlin this year? At the halfway mark, they were at 60.57, so just about 202 pace. They were slightly getting slower between 10K and half. Shortly after that, Kibbewatt Candy takes the lead and drops a 247 kilometer.

Katelyn Tocci (50:22.251)
Yes, you did. Why not?

Alex Cyr (50:23.575)
Basically, why not? But why would he do that? I think he knew what was at stake. He said, you there's a podium to win here. There's a legacy to upkeep. There's a chance for me to take center stage and make this race exciting and also take what's mine and become the next one. And I think we need to reward those balls. He gets the big balls award.

Michael Doyle (50:24.075)
Why not?

Alex Cyr (50:49.813)
On another day, I mean, listen, he's a 57-32 half marathoner. It's not like he's a nobody. On another day, he had it in the tank. He would go 201-45 and boom, there you go. Sounds a bit silly because he didn't do that, but I want to look out for him in the next few races. If someone was going to make this men's race memorable, it was Kibbewatt Candy and I want to reward him for that. And I mean, I could just go with the men's winner, but that's a bit too obvious. So, Big Balls Award, Kibbewatt Candy.

Katelyn Tocci (51:17.099)
All right.

Alex Cyr (51:18.755)
The loser? I thought about this. This is a kind of just, this is a boring one. I give it to the Berlin Marathon. Maybe they could have done more to attract a big star. Their legacy, as we've said in a previous pod and again today, is speed. And if they can figure out how to make the Olympic year race fast, I think that's how they win. They didn't do that in 2021. They didn't do that this year. I feel silly because I'm harping on 203.

Men for about 45 minutes. I'm about to go do my long run at no pace near that close. But listen, that's pro sports. That's how it is. And this race is not going to be that remembered. So I got to give Brillen Marathon the loss here.

Michael Doyle (52:03.379)
gave a 13th place finisher who did not deliver on his promise, the win and the Berlin marathon and its 50th anniversary with 50,000 runners, world marathon or major, the loss that's, let's give this guy the big balls award. is some, that is hot take potting right there. I like it. like it. Yeah. No, poor Kibuak candy. feel like just he's

Katelyn Tocci (52:09.942)
you

Alex Cyr (52:23.872)
Come at me Berlin.

Katelyn Tocci (52:27.434)
Ha ha.

Michael Doyle (52:32.947)
He's having his third marathon, super talented guy. kind of feel like Berlin was like the organizers were probably hoping in the back of their minds. Like this is going to be the big breakout race for him. We're going to get like a 201 performance. One of the fastest ever from somebody that wasn't even giving any given any consideration for the Olympics is going to be amazing. And that just kind of didn't happen. but Alex, I just gave you shit for that, but I'll flip my, I'll go losers and winners first. Cause loser. I agree with you Berlin.

Katelyn Tocci (52:45.59)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Doyle (53:02.739)
I also agree. And the reason why is because I feel like even though was the 50th anniversary, even though there's 50,000 people running it, even though clearly interest is at an all time high to actually run this race. feel like it was kind of a featureless characterless race to a certain degree as well. Like, and I think that Berlin has. For better or for worse, tied itself to elite running and record breaking performances and

The fact that the identity of this race is a fast course for so long. But now that we don't have that for a year, it's like, Whoa, this is a real vacuum. So I think, I think it's an interesting challenge for them in the future and for all these other races to kind of figure out what their identities are and also figure out how we attract the best runners and create these exciting match races that also produce world records at the same time. think that's the goal in 2025 and beyond. Let's go sub to Berlin.

like breaking to sub to, don't know, does Nike own the breaking to they probably do on that as a trademark or as a copyright or whatever. So sub two in Berlin, let's go sub two, two, 2025 for Berlin. My winner is this a weird one. I'm to pull out of nowhere here. I just noticed her in the results and I'm like, yeah, it's kind of a weird one, but 15th place from a team GB or not team GB. Cause she did not make the Olympics.

Philly Bowden. So if you know, if you watch a lot of influencers and YouTubers on Instagram and YouTube, of course, in the running space, you probably have encountered Philly Bowden at some point. She's got a pretty popular YouTube channel. She's gone through a lot of ups and downs the last couple of years. She was a New Balance athlete, tried to qualify for the Olympics. We talked a little bit about her around the Houston Marathon.

Cause she was one of those many athletes that went to Houston in January to try to qualify for the games. ran, think two 29 and just missed two 28, believe was a two 28. The qualifying time was a two. Yeah. Two 28. And, so she just missed qualifying for the Olympic team for, great Britain. She got dropped by new balance. and then she was like, kind of blown in the wind for a bit. The YouTube channel kind of got a little bit sad. She's like, I'm now going to be a YouTuber full time.

Michael Doyle (55:25.265)
follow my journey. don't know what's next. And then I think on picked her up recently. I mean, she's got a pretty big following. So it makes sense like from a business standpoint. Anyway, bearing the lead here. Philly Bowden went to Berlin ran 225 47. Huge PB for her. Good for her. Congratulations. mean, a bit bittersweet I imagine, you know, like I imagine it's a scenario where she's just like, well, shit, I would have liked to have done that in the springtime and ran the Olympics.

Alex Cyr (55:43.006)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Katelyn Tocci (55:43.792)
Awesome. Yeah.

Katelyn Tocci (55:53.172)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Doyle (55:53.553)
Interesting question mark and sort of a sliding doors moment to make reference to a great Gwyneth Paltrow film of the 1990s. You know, if she would have ran that sub 228 in the springtime or in January last year and made the Olympics, she wouldn't have run Berlin and run a 225 and had a big breakout right now, which I'm sure maybe comes with, I hope for her case comes with some bonus money from on and.

New opportunities for her and maybe world championships next year in Tokyo and that sort of thing. And being all of a sudden one of the top UK runners in the marathon. So maybe this is a blessing in disguise, not making the Olympics for her. Hopefully she sees it that way. know she's a person who like puts herself out there. I think, you know, question marks about whether what you really put yourself out there in a diaristic kind of way.

Katelyn Tocci (56:37.098)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Doyle (56:50.001)
On YouTube, can cut both ways for you, but kudos to her for running 225. So she is definitely my singular big winner of the day. Besides, of course, the winners of the race and to a degree, the 50,000 people who ran Berlin and the Berlin Marathon for celebrating its 50th anniversary. Guys, we did it. Instant reaction pod.

Katelyn Tocci (56:55.688)
Awesome.

Katelyn Tocci (57:02.622)
Mm-hmm.

Katelyn Tocci (57:13.436)
Yeah.

Michael Doyle (57:16.528)
Yeah, that was something like 20 minutes. Well, anyway, there was a lot to talk about. There's a lot to talk about. OK, now we all have to... There you go. Now we got to all peel out and run our long runs on this Sunday morning, super jazzed after watching an exciting world marathon major. We'll do this again for Chicago. I will be potting live on location and doing...

Alex Cyr (57:19.303)
Sure.

Katelyn Tocci (57:19.518)
Just around that, yeah.

Alex Cyr (57:22.749)
Listen to it on 1.5 and that's about 20 minutes.

Katelyn Tocci (57:25.534)
Yeah, listen to it fast. There you go.

Alex Cyr (57:40.582)
Oof.

Michael Doyle (57:41.496)
an instant reaction pod with you guys after Chicago still in my singlet.

Watch out for that one. Watch out for that one. All right, gang, make sure to subscribe to our newsletter, which goes out every weekday. 150 plus thousand other people do. So why shouldn't you? And give us a like and a review, a rating and a review on the podcast platform you're listening to right now. Thanks for listening.

Alex Cyr (57:49.167)
Let's get that on video.

Katelyn Tocci (57:51.474)
Awesome.

Katelyn Tocci (58:15.282)
Thanks.